Creating High Performing Teams
Creating High Performing Teams

Episode 16 · 2 months ago

How to become a better manager in just 15 minutes a week


  • Many companies promote the most talented person on a team to manager, but that doesn’t always work out
    • It can be hard for that person to let go of their individual work, which shortchanges things for their team. There’s also just too much to do. It doesn’t scale.
      • Taking care of your team means a lot, especially if you’re fighting on their behalf against others not looking out for them.
    • Krzysztof brought food and drink for their team and advocated for overtime when they had to work over a weekend in the summer. It helped with morale and retention on his team.
      • A Growth Mindset helps as a leader: Don’t see people doing well as a threat, but instead someone you can learn from.
    • Learn more about Growth Mindsets from the creator, Carol Dweck, in this video.
      • It didn’t work to ask his team “what would you like to learn?” so it was important for Krzysztof to find good ideas (like when he tried Lighthouse Lessons)
      • Task Relevant Maturity is one of Krzysztof’s favorite concepts to understand what skills your people need to work on. Learn about it here. 
      • Before they found Lighthouse Lessons they were semi-regularly meeting to talk as a team. With Lighthouse Lessons, they created a stronger, more consistent habit and a unifying subject to discuss as a group.
    • Meeting as a group with your fellow managers builds bonds and deeper learning you cannot get any other way, because you’re at the same company with the same culture.
    • You can also learn how Jornaya similarly used the Group Edition to build community among their managers.


  • Krzysztof believes in the value of habits, which he recognizes that our program getting people to schedule the habit really helps. He also loves the book Atomic Habits on the subject (which is what he shows in the video version of the interview).  

What are the most important elements of Lighthouse Lessons that keeps bringing him and his team back?

  1. The price for value is a really good in his view
  2. They don’t have a lot of time, so the bite-size lessons each week is ideal
  3. Some people on the team enjoyed the group discussions so much, they called in on their vacation  

Who makes the best fit for the program?

  • Someone who can commit to a weekly set of lessons. You only learn what you take the time to read and act.
  • A leader willing to encourage their team to meet. This is where the magic happens, but it may take a couple weeks for everyone to be as excited about the Group Lesson meetings as Krzysztof’s team is now.  

Ready to start leveling up your skills as a manager? Interested in a group of managers at your company?

  • For individuals, we do open cohorts of various courses throughout the year.
    • Join an active program or sign up to be notified about the next program here:
  • If you want to grow a group of managers like Krzysztof, you can buy our programs a la carte and start at the time you choose.
    • Sign up to get more information and discuss what program is the perfect fit for your team at:   

Where to find and follow Krzysztof:

Hi, I'm Jason Vanished, shield of Lighthouse, and this is the creating high performing teams podcast. We aim to be the most actionable podcast on leadership and management. You'll over here as every episode we try to teach you things that you can immediately act on to become a better leader at your workplace. Today I'm joined by Krishtoff Rokowski, who is a long time lighthouse lessons customer and also has over twenty years of experience, and it eleven of them as a manager. He currently works at a company called EMAG, which is a leading ECOMMERCE group, where he manages the it hub in Warsaw, Poland. He's also a published author, frequent speaker and he coast co hosts a podcast for future new leaders, and it called nerd management. Now this one's in Polish, so for those you Polish speakers who are joining the podcast, y'all to check out nerd dot management. He believes in leadership through empowering grain others, and that's what gives him the most satisfaction. So we're super excited to have him joining today, and he's another one of our international representatives joining our podcast. So thanks for joining us today. Kushtoff, how are you doing? All right, so I work since high school. I got my first gun put there for readily and I was trying to figure out ways of how cool and money with it. Yeah, and so I was doing mostly some programming, so web development, so they buy as a and such. But also I had some experience with you know manual ride or Labor, like working in the supermarket, in the seafood session, or working as a Balista in Atlantic city, Castino, or, you know, cleaning beach houses on the day short. Yeah, so they were fun times. MMM. But anyway, from the very beginning I was attracted to leading people. I'm not saying managing, because well, working as a body style. Yeah, and it was more about helping them rather than, you know, ordering them around here. So, for example, when I was working in this coffee shop, I was looking for ways to how to improve what we are doing here, how to make customers be served better. When I was in the university, I was elected to the student council and I was responsible for helping our colleagues from other countries that were coming to Poland and we're studying in our university. And then, for a year and a half I was trying to run my business. So it was a clash with all the this, let's say, formal side of management, like paying taxes, paying your people on time and the bringing a business to the company. Yeah, so from the very beginning, I think I was happy to, you know, to find some opportunities to improve the company that I was working in and the organization that I was part of, and I was happy to grab any of that kind of you know, let leader Shep opportunities. MMM, I'm I think that leadership is not something some kind of, I know, skills that you are born with. Yet this is like kind of, I could bit of skill, but also lack and attitude. Yeah, or maybe the other way attitude, and I to get a flag here. Yeah, and at so at some point, almost eleven years ago, I was working as a software developer in advertising agency and I had a little bit of free time and I was learning some new technology and that was new at at this time. Wasn't that pop yeah, and few months later, MMM, the largest bank in our country came to our company and they said they want to have some project done specifically in this technology. Yeah, and I was the only guy in the Ice Department...

...of like fifty, seventy people that knew this technol okay, so they they promoted me to the team leader and asked me to form a team and start a project. Yeah, and this is something that I see. This is how I got into management. Yeah, this formal management, and I think this is the usual path, very frequent path in it, that they take specially somebody who is like the most skilled person in the in their room. Yeah, and they may they make this person manager. Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's that, but this is kind of, let's say, something that happens in I think. And so this is how I got on this path. Very cool. And and so how did you, how did you learn to become a good leader? What what what's been more most helpful for you to learn and improve as a manager and become a better leader? MMM. So I must say that when I was starting, I was on the lowest level of the competence. So I was unconsciously incompetent. Yeah, and I thought that I know everything and that I'm pretty sure what I should do. And the only thing that m and the only thing that we need to do as a thing is be really optimistic and focus on our work. And, you know, just get to work, do some do some stuff, and will be the best thing in the company and will be, you know, doing what we are at doing. It will be successful. MMM. So, of course I started with the usual path that specialist who are promoted to managers do. So I wanted to still to be the smartest guy in the room. Yeah, and and I was taking lots of work for myself. I was trying to do my best and putting lots of hours and, you know, learning all the technical stuff. So I was trying to be the best individual contributor. And but that doesn't doesn't scale, obviously, right, you still have like eight hours or ten, maybe hours a day and that's it. And of course I was also neglecting the part with making sure my people were growing and we're happy and were treated fairly. Right. So I and it took me like, I think, maybe nine months or a year or something like this to to see that and to realize and to recognize that it's not possible to them, for the manager to be the smartest person in their room. Yeah, to be the individual contributor, and your goal is to hire people that are smarter than you. Yeah, people who have more experience in this for Egam some technical stuff that your team is doing. Yeah, I I was looking then. I started looking for really great developers and I wanted to hire them. Sometimes they were even paid better than me and and and my goal was to, you know, make them grow, feel good in the environment, help them solves problems, make sure they're happy so they have this, let's say, environment that they can do their job, and that's what you should do as a manager, as a lead. They're not just, you know, doing the individual contributor work. Yeah, so you mentioned that. You know, you started out like a lot of people were. You thought like the managers kind of supposed to be the boss and like dictate to other people. So can you think was their specific moment, or maybe a phase of time for you where you had, I think in America we call it an epiphany, you know, this moment of clarity in your mind where you go, Oh, I need to change what I'm doing, and so I'm curious, like you remember was their specific moment or maybe... a phase of time you remember that was causing you to have that realization that you couldn't be the smartest person in the room and that you couldn't dictate everything to your team. Like, what cause that change, for you to start to realize, hey, I need to hire people smarter than me and empower them. MMM, I think that's that's when you know there's so much more and you are trying to do everything and you will try to do all this technical stuff and you try to be the best and better. You see that, for example, people aren't not happy, people have some problems, they are not going there, for example, they are leaving because it's not the best place for them, and you see that, you know you have to juggle them and you I realize that, no, the returnal investment will be higher when I do different things. Yeah, so I cannot say that it was like. That's why I'm you know, you recommend it came. Came with time and I of course, I have to admit that for the now, after eleven years, I'm still learning. Yeah, but I wasn't the best manager for the first year. Yeah, and when I'm looking back, I'm not sure I would like to have that kind of manager as I was. But still, the other important lesson that I had, and I think I would like to share, is about how you treat you good people. Yeah, I remember that we there. We had some very important project. It was behind schedule. It was middle of summer in in in Poland, we had the soccer championships, I mean in Europe we call it football, you call it okay, and and we had to work during weekends and with very old office, without without air conditioning, in summer, and all the management, project managers, like CEO, everyone, they went to the to the stadium, you know, how to see the game, and they were like posting photos on facebook that they're having a good time, etc. I am you can you can imagine how how my my team for yeah, and obviously I felt it was kind of something that I felt now that I have to stay with them even on this other stage. I didn't have that much work to do. It was like the bugging test in case something, but I was there and I was, you know, ordering pizza, energy drinks and, you know, I brought tv so we could watch the game anyway and such. HMM. And to add insult to enjoy, the management at some points say that I said that they didn't want to pay full over time. So you can imagine that the team wasn't happy. And but at the end I saw that because I treated them like, you know, they're like a human beings, and I was with them there and I was helping them and I fought for their their overtime. So you thought, forshion like their benefits and to change. Yeah, all right. So, so I thought for the overtime benefits. Yeah, and they saw that, that that I was, you know, doing that for them, eat, let's say, influence their moral positively. Yeah, they I thought that. Some of them left because of this, but some of them stayed because I treated them as a like, you know, as a human being. So I think that's also important lesson at the very let's say beginning, to have some values yet that are important for you and treat people like, like people. Yeah, that's great. And Sue, other than kind of some of these hard...

...lessons learned, like I could tell. I could, like I think everyone can kind of visualize that like visceral feeling of kind of resentment and maybe a little bit of frustration of like, Hey, I'm working weekends and like the big the big head of the company is like partying and having Faune at the thing I'd like to be at. Ye, I think we can all kind of feel how that would feel if it was our team having that happen. I'm curious what kinds of things over the years just helped you kind of learn those skills beyond kind of the trial and error and those like herds kind of scarring experiences I think we all go through. Like, what kinds of things just maybe help you learn a little a little less painful way, some of the things that were the right things to do, you know, you know, things like books or courses or or more or mentors or coaches or anything like that. What kinds of things helped you kind of start to learn, learn those skills maybe ahead of big painful moments like the soccer match situation? Yeah, I think one of very important things is this is something for me, for example, as either right now that B I'm working with other eithers is the you're friends of the boss? Yeah, when you are, and the boss would be very good boss, or better bed. Yea, I have a great boss and he he was like a mentor for yeah, he told me lots of things that I couldn't read from the books I just saw because he was he was giving me an example how to how to be a good boss, how to work. HMM. And of course you can have negative example. Yeah, very bad boss, and then you you see some pattern and you are saying, I don't want to be like this person and I will be completely different. And so this is this is like, you know, learning through some example. Of course. Now we have great opportunity of learning from books, from PODCASTS, from courses like yours. Yeah, that there is like lots, lots lots of free or cheap or very affordable information on the Internet. Yeah, MMM, I think it depends on the on them, on how you process information and how we are learning. Yeah, people like up the books, some people like books, some people like podcasts. Of course, the let's say the most effective learning is on the job. We are doing stuff and you are making mistakes and you are learning from them, or you have peers that you discussed and you work with with peers and and then you can exchange some information. I think we'll get to that later. So, if I would say that the reading materials are like, yeah, they are very useful, but the most important is discussing peers or having some mentor or somebody who from whom you can you can learn. That's great. That's great, and so, as you've kind of tried a lot of these things. What if you found? I just when did you start kind of doing these things, like discussing with peers and things like that? Is that something that someone taught you, something you decided to try as you were starting to grow, leaders around you, how to kind of appear learning start to emerge for me? For me it was m I'm I think I have this growth mindsetin treats that when I saw some sort of the see somebody who doing like a great job, being good at what they're doing, I don't see them as a friend, but I see them as somebody that I can, you know, lend from and I just go to them and...

...ask them, all right, how you did that? Yeah, please teach me the so and I think it's very valuable. Yeah, this is something that that the was in one of your lessons that we receive the good fixed versus growth mindset. Yes, HMM, the being opened for this having this Raidar. Yeah, look for people that doing great stuff. This is something that I tell to to the leaders that I'm working with that they should, you know, when they see somebody doing great think, you know, our company or outside, they should go ask and you know, ask maybe for some consultation, yeah, or have a discussion, because most of the people are very happy to help you to answer the questions. They will do it for free. This is like a human nature. Yeah, that they will feel good to have somebody. Yeah. So there is lots of and it's very valuable to talk with somebody who is expect who is good are that's what they are doing and they most are be they will help you for free and they will be happy that you are asking them. Yeah, that's great. Yeah, yeah, totally right. I think mentorship is one of those things when you're young you're extremely grateful for the people that help you and as you get older you start to realize that as a mentory actually get a lot other relationship to both, I think, personal enjoyment and satisfaction of helping someone who maybe is in a position like you were in one day in the past, but also, I found the people I've mentored in my my career I've gotten a lot other relationship as well. Actually, like it doesn't seem like it when you're the mentee, you're the person learning, but as a mentor you can actually learn awful lot from the from the people you help and support as well. That's true. That do I say, your few sides of this. First of all, when you have to teach someone something, then you have to really think about this. Yeah, it's very hard to explain something you need, you really need to understand, understand this subject very, very good. And other thing is that it gives me like great, great satisfaction when I see that somebody require mentored, like maybe after I know, three months or six months, I see that this person was promoted or did something great, and it's really really very satisfying, very exciting when you see that somebody that was working with you is successful. This is this is something that's really awesome. Yeah, absolutely. So, going back to I know you've done to watch a different forms of learning for yourself and for your teams, and so you so. So, now that you're a leader of a group of other leaders, how do you think about not just your growth pectose of your team? MMM. So it's difficult to work on leaders development because sometimes there is an assumption that if somebody's leader, he, you know, was promoted to the leadership position day already there, they know everything and they are there their best in their job and they know what they are doing, and ego place a huge role. Yeah, MMM, and it's completely natral. Yeah, sometimes, when my boss tells me that I'm I should do something better, I am not happy or I don't feel comfortable with that. Yeah. So, but on the other hand, everybody has to grow, even the CEO of the company has to grow. Yes, so you can just leave it and assume that, for example, they will take they will take... of their growth by themselves. Yeah, sometimes they won't see the blind spots or they don't have an idea how to proceed. Yeah, so, mm. And, for example, this is something that didn't work for me, just asking them. All right, so what training do you want or what do you want to learn? MMM, yeah, the only think that they say that we should continue our lighthouse lessons. Yeah, because they like it. But so what work for me? Yeah, mm. First of all, it's important to understand what do you expect from them as a manager? Yeah, on the specific position, what do you expect from the need there? Yes, so stopped with expectations, but my experience is that, for I saw job descriptions for the team leaders and it was like it's conducting one on one, it's attending meetings and these doing some reports. Yeah, I don't think this is a good way. It should be just some Kpis or things that they should do. MMM, it's important to understand why you have this leader in your company. Yeah, and it's not because he or she has to do some specific tasks or do hiring or approve vacation requests. Yeah, and now leader is gone. This is not there all over. Then there. MMM, there is the team, and the team is there. So they deliver some kind of product with some kind of quality that we expect, and it's on time, for example, and the reader's law. That the only the only, let's say, the only purpose of leader here is that the team is doing what they are what they have to do. Yeah, and from this, from this let's say, main expectation, we can branch out some other things. Yeah, like having having a team that is competent. Yeah, having having actually the people on the team with different skills or recruitment have doing some reporting that is required by the but the corporation. But this is something that goes from this original expectation. Sure, so the team has certain but those the team has certain expectations that they need to deliver on and it's the leader's job to make sure that happens, but you should they're not robots, so it takes a little more, little more effort in a and and more nuanced approaches. Right. Yeah, so basically it's my idea is that you don't expect leaders to use some tools like one on one's or the APIS or whatever they they are there to to fulfill those goals and expectations of a team. MMM. And when you know the expectations, it's important, of course, that you agree on them with your leaders that are working with you. You can start assessing where they stand. Yeah, so, for example, task you haven't maturity has a great tool that the tells you where they stand in different, let's say, in those expectations, and then, starting from that, you can you can see what they have to improve and then you can work with them to improve those specific, specific areas. And that's, of course, the start of the German because then, when you know what you what you have to improve them, you can start working. Yeah. So, for those listening are familiar, there's not familiar. Task Relevant, task relevant maturity is a concept from any growth who is the see of Intel in this amazing book called Highput Management, which we recommend people all the time. And importanting in that concept is that at instead...

...of kind of one size fits all management, what you do is you evaluate people based on the individual tasks or assignments or responsibilities you give them. And so if somebody's brand new to a task, your more hands on and if they're experienced in very good at a task, your hands off. But what that means is for any individual person you may be hands on and certain situations and for the exact same person other situations, where you trust them and they have the skills, your very hands off, as opposed to what many managers mistakenly do, is they are hands on for everything for one person and hands off for everything for another person, and that, of course, creates a lot of issues. And so really important concept, Chris, that you brought up here is this idea that you know you want to evaluate an individual tasks, individual skills and approaches how one person your team is doing and help them improve in one specific area where they need it most. MMM, and also with the important I think, is to realize them to let's say, who be okay, we do that, you can be have like a low skills in some specific field and that's okay. Yeah, there are more people that are best. Everything okay, will be right. Could be, let's say, were or having lower skills in some foods, and that's okay. This is where you can improve. That's great. So, knowing that everyone in your in your team, you know, is going to have different skills gaps and you can't necessarily ask them what they want to learn, you kind of have to help them figure out maybe where there's gaps for them to work. How you, as a leader, you know, started to work on those different things with people. What? What has, what is made a difference in trying to overcome the fact that everybody is a little bit different and they maybe don't necessarily know what they'd like to learn, but you know they have things they need to learn. When you know what they should learn or what they should be improve this like an individual thing? Yeah, I don't. I think it's very, very important to have the relationship with everyone, one on one relationship. Yes, of of course, one on the meetings. That are something that it's a sential. Yeah, I'm meeting with my leaders every week. This is something that's I think for me, this is like my duty to be there yeah, for them, and I I'm not conseling or postponing those meetings. I'm there for them, and so it's important to have this kind of relationship with them. Yeah, and depending on what you want to improve, you have to find specific tool. Sometimes we are looking for some mentor that we can pay like for fuel, fuel sessions with some men. Yeah, sometimes we are buying some cores or some I know, some online, online training. Yeah, MMM. Sometimes we are looking for some peer group in our company. But yeah, are familiar with some kind of technology or model, some skip. So it should be like very, very focused. Yeah, and very, very, let's say, personalized. Yeah, that's great. So so how did you first come across? Why? House by Hause lessons are our courses that you and your team have done a few of. Do you remember how you found it? I remember that one of my team leaders sent me a link to your blog and I really liked it, so I subscribed M and I think at some point I saw some advertisement. Yeah, and I really yeah, I really like I really like the content. I was happy with the quality of the content you provided for free, so I expected the same or higher quality from the paid content. So, yeah, that's that's why I decided to try the lessons. Were you of course they're wells oh yeah, so. So one of the things, one of the things about the program is this idea that you meet... a team to discuss it. Were you already meeting with your team or was this kind of a new idea to start to meet with your team to go go over the lessons and talk about leadership challenges and things like that? So we are meeting from time to time and we're trying to, know, find some subjects to discuss, and depend dependent on the situation is. Sometimes there was some subject discuss sometimes not. Sometimes there was some book or some training that we want these guys. But those like because sometimes people steppending, sometimes not. So the lighthouse lessons, we like them because they create that some happy gifts and routine and we spend like that. The Menu. It's reading email, then one that we're discussing, and this is some routine we start then. So even when we fink, use the you know, the cycle. Yeah, some lessons and we have some time between, we are still meeting and there we are discussing some books or whatever. If I'm cotting cutting subjects, that's great. Yeah, that's one of the things that we found is pretty common. Occasionally we have we have companies that already were meeting as as as managers together, but a lot aren't, and I think a lot of them are great. By product that I love is that people realize that there is actually huge value in creating community within your company, around the different leaders in your organizations actually getting time to connect with each other, build bonds and specifically discuss what is hard about being a leader, because so much of being a leader it's kind of self taught. You know, you go to school for parts of it, maybe if you go to graduate school or something like that, but a lot of the best leadership skills happen in the workplace and on the job. And so being able to discuss with your peers, especially if, say, there's, you know, cultural challenges in your company or or just ways that you're come likes to do things, that is like tribal knowledge you want to pass on. Having that safe environment where it's just your peers and fellow leaders together is, I think, a really powerful environment, regardless of what you do with that time. Yeah, especially that, I might say, very, very busy and it's sometimes hard to find this time. Yeah, NEAT and discuss. There's there's always something more and more important. So this is also something that I really like it. It's this program is great for the busy people we at that you just get the email, you read it and sometimes we are not discussing specifically the the things that supposed to be discussed in the in the in the in the again. Yeah, but still sometimes it goes somewhere else. Yeah, the discussion goes, HMM, sideways. But still there is a value. Yeah, because we have discussing something that's important for us and sometimes something that that that we want to shore and, as I mentioned, this peer, peer discussions are the most valuable. From me, I think absolutely. Yeah, I completely agree with that wishpect. We try very hard to encourage people to try and do that, because I think there is just there's so much value and knowledge that like your peers have and no one, I don't think anyone, understands the situation you have as a manager and your day to day quite like the other managers in your company, because you all share the same culture, you share much of the same languages and communication styles and and they'll understand the nuance of different challenges that may be unique to your industry and things like that, and being able to kind of share some of that trial and error together and things that you've done is a really powerful thing. That just it's so easy for it not to happen and not to have those chances to build those connections, but then once you start to have them, you see how how powerful it really is just can sit down and connect with your fellow managers for a few minutes, you know, once a week or every couple of weeks.

So you already mentioned one of the concepts that we teach a lot with task relevant maturity. I'm curious now that you and your teams have actually gone through a number of our programs, I'm curious what maybe are some of the most memorable lessons for you. What are some of the topics that have really stood out for you as as things that have been helpful for you or some of the leaders that you work with? So actually, I think the top things that I already mentioned that because they're popping up all the time. This is like the Tuskalvan maturity and the other subject of this relate that the what the line? Please step boy. Yeah, this is something that the pops up all the time. Yeah, when we do have discusting about what we are doing, about what our people that set there. Yeah, and that. And the other is about these growth versus fixed mindset them. This is something that also we are mmm frequently well, seeing those butt those and we are disgusting it. Yeah. So, of course every lesson has its value and are like lots of subject but I think those two are very, very practical. Can you maybe share? Sure she've already talked. We've talked a much about the task Ra maturity, but I'm curious, can you share maybe a strong example of how the waterline principle has come into play, coming to play for you, or so or one of your managers, without going much into yeah specific yeah, we have the situation that we have one of the team leader's to delegate more and because he's got like lots of lots on his playing thinking about, you know, what what he what can do, digate and how do done to this waterline prince principle, which says that you know, you can draw that kind of line. Yeah, and above this line it's like safe to for people to make mistakes and make errors, and you know they can. They can fail, and that's okay because they will learn something. Yeah, and below that line, it's below the water so they it's not. They kind of make mistakes there, because the failure will be catastrophical for your company. You think it about like our flow business or for whatever. Yeah, just your contact people. The waterline is about a boat, and so above the waterline, obviously you could patch the whole but if it's below the waterline, will sink your boat. So so, yeah, that is what you what you have to avoid, and it's a great way to frame a conversation where, especially at take if you have a problem that you think is threatening below the waterline, you know, you may want to raise the concern earlier or have a more serious and in depth discussion before you decide what to do. HMM. And in fact this is something that I I did now, is because we're discussing this so frequently. It's like, you know, we are just asking, all right, this is, you know, about the the the line or below, and that's it. Everybody knows. You know what's what's the question, man. Yeah, and and how to respond? That's great. And and some serious like when you when you think about like the fact you have done a number number of programs. I know we're going to be starting a new one for you here in the New Year soon. What what are they like? Do you think of the most important elements that that keep you coming back, like what has made you want to keep doing programs with us? There are few things. First of all, for me as a M as a as a leader here, I see that you know that the returnal investment is really good because the reasonably price. Yeah, but they bring a value. Yeah. So I have my leaders meeting every week and every meeting brings some value and we are growing here. So this is really great. Other is how this is delu are the yeah, we we are very busy and we don't have that much time. So it's really convenient to have the email. And we don't because the you,... cannot have, you know, exclusive ownership of knowledge, the knowledge that you say yeah, then not. Let's that you stupply. You can read it from the books, from the trainings or podcast or whatever. Yeah, but the way that you are, you deliver, it's unique. I think it's easy to consume. Yeah, and it's in brings the value. Yes, so I think this is something that keeps us coming back the other thing, like something that is, let's say, memorable for me. We had this situations a few times that, for example, somebody was on a holiday or was seek, but they anyway. They wanted to join the meeting because they see value in yeah, and somebody was joining us from host from hot a HA, from car, yeah, because they were driving to sea side or whatever. Yeah. So this can you imagine somebody joining zoom call to for a meeting when they are on holiday? Yeah, it doesn't care. Yeah, but they are doing this yet because they see value in those meetings. That's that's awesome to here. I've not heard someone be for wanted to break away from their vacation because they didn't want to miss out on the group discussion. But that's fantastic and that's certainly something that that that we hope for when we try and help. But it's really really kind of humbling the hear that they they appreciate this that much. Thinking about these programs then, you know, for someone who maybe hasn't done one of our our programs before, what do you think is key for success to making this work so that they do get that kind of impact or our alive from making this investment and day and maybe a group of managers at their company. What do you think is key to having it work out well for them? So I think it's come on through joined the kind of open let the programs. Yet they'll do subscribe and to get like a serious of emails over a few weeks and you'll read it or not. Yea, somewhere in your inbox. Yeah, MMM. So I think the key here is to have the time. I think in one of your courses, you and course because this Hab beat. Yea, that, yes, MMM, you'll set a site some time in your schedule to read that you may and go through it. Actually, it's in every single program we start every program actually with the habit building and saying hey, yeah, you should prioritize it. I'm sure you guys have done enough. I'm sure you like almost gloss over on it because because you make it a bonus lesson, we don't even count towards the total number of lessons and we tell you it's twelve lessons. There's a bonus thirteen. That tells you at the start how to build the habit. But you're absolutely right. We want you to think about like this is an investment in yourself and you should schedule the time. So, sorry, go ahead continue. Ill. That's a really important thing we try and do. Yeah, yeah, so I mean like this, of course, something that is obvious. Even I have that by coincidence, the automy cobbige. Oh, yes, book. Yeah, Great. So have its habits. Are they are the most important, and you have you need to have this habit, like put the time in your schedule to go through this, Emma, actually read the yeah, and then the discussion. I think that discussion is the most important. You know, to you talk with your peers and you have a discussion, and this is where when the learning happen. Yeah, of course. There is also some things like how we personally process this knowledge. For example, I'm making a note from each email, so I write this in my own words and then it. I know, my mind processes eating a more efficiently, let's say. Yeah, yeah, that's great. We've talked a bunch about the the the kind of media as a group, and so I'm curious how did you, how did you originally present this to your team? Like were they were they excited by the initial idea of having another media on their schedule to do...

...something or did it take some convincing to get them to want to like add more to their calendar to talk about this thing that you're going to try out? Of course they weren't excited. It was like all right, one more meeting. But, as usually with every every change or improvement, I had these people that were more excited than other's, the other or like all right, let's do this, that would be great, let's see. Yeah, some of them were locked down, but I think after few meetings, like two or three meetings, MMM, they really liked it. And even we made that role that if there is one person ups and we can still keep them meeting, but if there is the two people ups and we are not doing the meeting, we meet, you know, the next week because people don't want to miss it. Yeah, so it needs some time to, you know, to make this investment. One and a half hour every week. This is like a lot sometimes. Yeah, so you need to make this investment, but afterwards I think it's really you know, it's it's based off that's great. Yeah, and to clarify, what he's saying is you spent about thirty minutes reading and individually thinking about how you're going to act on a lesson with your team and then the hours news for you actually meet as a group and really get a chance to dig in and talk about either you know what you did, what questions you had about the lesson, what stood out and resonated and and a lot of things like that that then are more action oriented. And so yeah, so it's some individual investment and then it's also kind of media as a meeting as a group, thinking about the impact. then. So you've mentioned that your managers really look forward to it. But how have you seen maybe your leader change or are improvement? With any of your leaders? Have you actually seen lessons than we to positive impacts for them as leaders? For sure, they those lessons contribute to the growth. Yeah, I see that people are growing. I cannot say that this is the only, let's say, only factor question, but you know, people having the mindset this is like important building, yeah, of their growth. And what I mentioned is that the toolbox that we are built deck and the common language that we are getting from those lessons. Yes, sometimes it's that, like, you know, one person participated some training, other person some other somebody watch some vodka podcasts or or something on Youtube and the knowledge is scattered. Yeah, and now when we are all, all of us is participating in the same we have this common language and you know that discussions are smootherer and we are using the tools, you know, that are familiar to everyone. And of course it creates, helps, helps create this habit of constant learning and constant discussion. That's great. And so it sounds like, when you're not in a program are you still meeting as managers? Yes, of course, of course. When on rare occasions that we are in between the programs, as you mentioned, will be starting an xt one soon. Ye, we are meeting and then we are discussing, I know, about the book or both cost or something. That's great. There is always something, but this is after we create the descut beat of meeting. Okay, every week now as a leader, you know, one of the things that actually is an interesting kind of historical note on on the lighthouse lessons programs is that when we started it was just it was just the hey, we're going to send you a lesson to teach you something. The the group addition actually literally came from a manager at another company emailing me and being like hey,...

Jason, I started meeting my team to talk about this, but it's kind of time consuming for me to figure out what to do with the meanings. Any chance you could help me out with like making it easier to have that discussion? And so we literally created the group addition because customers told us they needed that help. And so I'm curious for yourself as a leader, how has kind of what we do to help you prepare for the group discussions how? How is that impacted you? You know, how much? How much prep do you find you have to actually do before some of these group meetings in order to make them go well? So that's really something that the safe some some or I love the time for us. They because in fact we are going through the least and every time some other person is like a mother, right though. M so that's great because, m you know, we have to really prepared to to moderate the discussion and every I think like seven or eight weeks. So it's not that that that much, that frequent. MMM. So this is really like some great value added that somebody those prepares agenda for you and you just have to show up and of course the read read that, read the email before. Yeah, that's so. This really removes the obstacles. There too, moves barriers. There is no excuse that. All right, you just have to read e mail, attend this meeting. It. That's not that much to ask. Yeah, and the people that are were frequently saying, all right, I don't have a time. You know, I'm very busy. They are reading email, those emails and that are coming prepared, and that's really awesome. Yeah, and because I see that email, they're learning. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, the the big thing we wanted to do. It was shortcut. It will also when we prepare the discussion agendas, we try to give you too many questions, on purpose actually, because we want you to be able to be like, I don't like that one, that's not my style, and now the one to do. That is a good one, though. I want to use that, and so gives you the opportunity to, as a leader, be a curator instead of a creator. You know, their original leader asks about it was like I'm spending like he's like, I'm spending like an hour before the meeting just trying to like think about what questions you should talk about, and I feel like you probably could do that faster, and I was like yeah, we could. We could because you're at the lesson. That's what if you if you have that list that we provide, it kind of gives you a jump off point for how to get started. We also kind of give you an idea of a good way to structure the meeting with warming people up a little bit and bye, by giving you kind of a long list of potential topics. Were trying to spark discussion and you can take it wherever you want to, but this way you're not starting empty handed or from scratch. HMM, okay, I'm going through. I'm going to need to wrop up like in five me that's why I the last question. We're done. So so we're pro right. Cool, cool, cool. So, so this has been an awesome discussion. I appreciate you sharing what's been like for you to use light out a lighthouse lessons, and so I'm curious. Kind of final question for you is, what advice would you have for someone considering a group learning program like lighthouse? Who Do you think would be a really good fit for it? MMM, so I recommend this for thems. MMM, because of the discussion. Yeah, this is the most valuable product. Yeah, because those lessons. I'll just like excuses are motivation for this exchange of idea. Yeah, especially if you lead there's not a busy and they don't have time to attend the training or read the boom, yeah, or do something like this. MMM, this is us like. No, very, very short, very there's a neat thought invest that you could beat of time and this translates very good outcome. Yet, as I mentioned, highly...

...them investment. So I think it would be good to teams that are open to discussion to grow, to exchange information, that are busy, kind of busy. A HM. Absolutely. So this has been an awesome conversation and when to thank you for joining us, joining us today, sharing what it was like for you and your team trying to improve as leaders under, you know, limited time and build those bonds by meeting together. And so the final question for you, then would just be how can people find you? I know you mentioned you of your podcast at nerd dot management for those those that are familiar with the Polish language. So anything any other places you'd like people to check you out? Hmm, I think the best would be to look me up on Linkedin. Okay, active there and if I do something interesting I post it on my linkedin so awesome, m you could, you could the sets me there and I'm open to you know the top awesome got thing. Well, we will. We will include in the show notes a link to to Chris's Linkedin so you can check them out and thanks for joining us. This has been the creating high performing teams podcast. Thank you. Thanks for having me by some.

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